No one has mentioned it yet, so if I could ask, what about Hong Kong?
I'm an American living state-side but I have done some research on relocating to Hong Kong. I work from home with a salary that would be at least semi-respectable anywhere in the US (though of course not luxurious in high CoL cities), but it doesn't seem like it would be enough to furnish a home or lifestyle in HK that is anything like what we have now.
Immigration seems like it will be a problem without employer sponsorship, and employment opportunities for programmers look terrible (though, to be fair, I don't know much Cantonese yet so I can't search in the native language).
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the only realistic way to get there would be a career shift into finance and specifically targeting the type of jobs that often end up being exported to HK (along with luxurious compensation and relocation packages).
Anyone here run a biz from HK and want to share some details? I see several of its neighbors have been mentioned: Singapore, Taipei, Bangkok, but no HK. Is that just luck of the draw or is there a reason that entrepreneurs avoid HK?
I have an indirect acquaintance, someone I just barely know enough to follow on Facebook, who opened an office in HK. He's been there for 3 or 4 years now, but just announced he and his family are relocating over the border into Shenzen to open another office there (as I understand it, his HK office is still operating, and, for the record, his company primarily does Wordpress sites). I thought this was interesting. I don't know the guy well enough to ask him directly about what motivated him, but is this something people are seeing a lot of? From my reading, it sounds like the only benefits of Shenzen are cheaper rent and more protections from hostile Western governments (HK more likely to extradite and/or honor civil judgments issued by Western countries than mainline China), and there appear to be many additional limitations despite Shenzen's status as a Special Economic Zone.
I do. I think the most important question is: If your business is truly location independent and you don't have other reasons to be in HK, why choose to locate it in the city with the world's most expensive real estate?
There are many things I love about HK, but the control of the property market by a cartel of local families permeates every aspect of life.
There's zero sales tax in HK and goods are manufactured nearby, and yet a nice TV from a retail electronics store will cost you double what you'd pay in the US, because they need to cover the rent.
Even something simple like finding a cafe to sit down, enjoy a coffee and read the paper becomes a nearly impossible challenge at times given the inability of a cafe to support its exorbitant rent from customers spending an hour sitting around.
To put some numbers on it, the average rental per per square foot at the high end is $0.55/hour [1]. Assuming you're serving customers 12 hours a day, and you have nothing but customer seating, with one square meter per person, that's $12/hour in rent alone for every seat.
Without zoning, the highest bidder wins. So food and beverage have been pushed up into the high floors of office buildings where rents are cheaper, and the pedestrian areas are instead lined with jewelry and watch shops.
Although HK has a lot of nice forest (as only 25% of the land is developed), within the developed areas, this is what passes for a park:
Thanks for your answer. Can you elaborate on your general experiences in HK? Are you a native or a foreigner? Are you running a business or working for someone? What are conditions like generally?
I'll admit that legal troubles are what initially got me interested in HK. A corporation with a lot of influence in the U.S. threatened to sue my startup for violations of the CFAA, thereby shutting us down. I started to look for other places in the world where the law was less ambiguous and from where I may be able to operate my business.
The telecommunications law in HK seems to make it somewhat-explicitly more legal there, though it's still probably not a slam dunk. We have to personally relocate, can't just re-incorporate in HK, because this company will sue me in the U.S. if I resume operations. Relocating a) provides an additional layer of indirection between American court systems and my personal assets and freedom, and HK specifically makes further retreat from Western influence more feasible, should it become necessary, given its proximity to PRC and other countries that are not US lapdogs; and b) makes it more difficult for an American court to establish personal jurisdiction over my activity, though I have no doubt that BigCo's lawyers would get it easily.
HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to everything, including a lot of the brands that we're used to in America (I understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it), which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to fully immerse in Cantonese.
In the course of my research, I learned that Snowden's first preference for refuge was Hong Kong, and it's easy to see why. Singapore is probably the only other comparable candidate. Europe is out of the question in general due to their social and political stances, but it has even worse computer access laws than America if you can believe it.
Realistically I understand that HK is not a practical refuge with regard to my specific legal issues. There's nowhere in the world I could go and be safe from the wrath of one of the world's largest and most recognizable companies. In any modern country, they'll easily outlawyer me, and the laws on these matters are not completely unambiguous; it'd take me millions of dollars to mount a defense, and even then, there's a substantial likelihood that they would prevail.
In any developing country, the officials will be far too easy to buy off, and most likely all this company would have to do is ask, because the officials would much rather have their goodwill than mine. Look at the Pirate Bay guys; even though what they were doing was completely legal under Swedish law, the US State Dept pushed for their prosecution at the behest of a cartel of large companies, Sweden held a kangaroo court and convicted them, they fled to Cambodia/Laos/Thailand (basically the only countries with computer access that don't extradite on command from Western nations) and still eventually got caught at border crossings and sent back home to serve their time. Moral of the story appears to be that if BigCo wants your life screwed up badly enough, they will relentlessly pursue until it's done, and petty things like the laws of the nation-state are not relevant. Ultimately, money talks, no matter where you live.
I also don't really want to become an effective exile from my own home country, which is what would happen even if there was a country that would shelter a little person like myself. Criminal charges are possible under the CFAA and there would be an arrest warrant issued if a criminal case was brought, probably meaning I'd get arrested at the first American border stop. There would certainly be a standing civil judgment against any assets I own within American boundaries, which means I would never be able to have a bank account or own a home without resorting to identity theft. Not good stuff, and my little business is absolutely not worth all of that.
Even though I understand that there is nowhere on Earth that would allow my business to resume operations, after the research I've done, I still believe it'd be good for my family to spend a few years in Hong Kong for the reasons enumerated above. I continue to be interested in learning as much as I can from people who have experience there, especially experience with the entrepreneurial scene and/or raising a large family as an expat.
HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to everything, including a lot of the brands that we're used to in America (I understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it), which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to fully immerse in Cantonese
I have no input on your legal woes, but your points above are pretty accurate. It's a very easy, safe (excluding the air pollution) and convenient place to live. The only point I'd disagree with is in raising a family there, but I imagine that's a personal preference. I'd also suggest that Mandarin would be immensely more useful for your children than Cantonese.
I don't want to turn this into a discussion, so i wont reply here again, but I'd direct you to the following popular forum for expat families here, which should contain a lot of relevant information and where you can ask questions of other HK expats:
I live in HK, and have for 4 years. I lived in Shenzhen for 4 years prior to that, and Hong Kong is much better. It is nearly impossible to immigrate here without employer sponsorship, however you can look at their new startup immigration scheme, which allows startup founders a special visa provided you have a business plan, and plans to hire local people. Programming jobs abound, look up some headhunting/placement companies, and they will bend over backwards to place you. I work for myself, but my wife is HKese so that's how I manage. I love HK, it's a modern vibrant city, however it's offing expensive. Income tax is very low, but rent is hilariously overpriced, so this makes everything more expensive here. That said, if you want to live more locally, you can get by relatively inexpensively for things like food. Public transport is cheap and phenomenal so there's no need for a car. That said, unless you're in fintech or have a very good reason or big desire to be here, there are probably better places to go.
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No one has mentioned it yet, so if I could ask, what about Hong Kong?
I'm an American living state-side but I have done some research on relocating to Hong Kong. I work from home with a salary that would be at least semi-respectable anywhere in the US (though of course not luxurious in high CoL cities), but it doesn't seem like it would be enough to furnish a home or lifestyle in HK that is anything like what we have now.
Immigration seems like it will be a problem without employer sponsorship, and employment opportunities for programmers look terrible (though, to be fair, I don't know much Cantonese yet so I can't search in the native language).
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that the only realistic way to get there would be a career shift into finance and specifically targeting the type of jobs that often end up being exported to HK (along with luxurious compensation and relocation packages).
Anyone here run a biz from HK and want to share some details? I see several of its neighbors have been mentioned: Singapore, Taipei, Bangkok, but no HK. Is that just luck of the draw or is there a reason that entrepreneurs avoid HK?
I have an indirect acquaintance, someone I just barely know enough to follow on Facebook, who opened an office in HK. He's been there for 3 or 4 years now, but just announced he and his family are relocating over the border into Shenzen to open another office there (as I understand it, his HK office is still operating, and, for the record, his company primarily does Wordpress sites). I thought this was interesting. I don't know the guy well enough to ask him directly about what motivated him, but is this something people are seeing a lot of? From my reading, it sounds like the only benefits of Shenzen are cheaper rent and more protections from hostile Western governments (HK more likely to extradite and/or honor civil judgments issued by Western countries than mainline China), and there appear to be many additional limitations despite Shenzen's status as a Special Economic Zone.
I do. I think the most important question is: If your business is truly location independent and you don't have other reasons to be in HK, why choose to locate it in the city with the world's most expensive real estate?
There are many things I love about HK, but the control of the property market by a cartel of local families permeates every aspect of life.
There's zero sales tax in HK and goods are manufactured nearby, and yet a nice TV from a retail electronics store will cost you double what you'd pay in the US, because they need to cover the rent.
Even something simple like finding a cafe to sit down, enjoy a coffee and read the paper becomes a nearly impossible challenge at times given the inability of a cafe to support its exorbitant rent from customers spending an hour sitting around.
To put some numbers on it, the average rental per per square foot at the high end is $0.55/hour [1]. Assuming you're serving customers 12 hours a day, and you have nothing but customer seating, with one square meter per person, that's $12/hour in rent alone for every seat.
Without zoning, the highest bidder wins. So food and beverage have been pushed up into the high floors of office buildings where rents are cheaper, and the pedestrian areas are instead lined with jewelry and watch shops.
Although HK has a lot of nice forest (as only 25% of the land is developed), within the developed areas, this is what passes for a park:
https://www.google.com/maps/@22.2753215,114.171373,3a,37.5y,...
There are many great things about HK, but it's important to be aware of the space issue.
[1] http://www.mingtiandi.com/real-estate/china-retail-real-esta...
Thanks for your answer. Can you elaborate on your general experiences in HK? Are you a native or a foreigner? Are you running a business or working for someone? What are conditions like generally?
I'll admit that legal troubles are what initially got me interested in HK. A corporation with a lot of influence in the U.S. threatened to sue my startup for violations of the CFAA, thereby shutting us down. I started to look for other places in the world where the law was less ambiguous and from where I may be able to operate my business.
The telecommunications law in HK seems to make it somewhat-explicitly more legal there, though it's still probably not a slam dunk. We have to personally relocate, can't just re-incorporate in HK, because this company will sue me in the U.S. if I resume operations. Relocating a) provides an additional layer of indirection between American court systems and my personal assets and freedom, and HK specifically makes further retreat from Western influence more feasible, should it become necessary, given its proximity to PRC and other countries that are not US lapdogs; and b) makes it more difficult for an American court to establish personal jurisdiction over my activity, though I have no doubt that BigCo's lawyers would get it easily.
HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to everything, including a lot of the brands that we're used to in America (I understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it), which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to fully immerse in Cantonese.
In the course of my research, I learned that Snowden's first preference for refuge was Hong Kong, and it's easy to see why. Singapore is probably the only other comparable candidate. Europe is out of the question in general due to their social and political stances, but it has even worse computer access laws than America if you can believe it.
Realistically I understand that HK is not a practical refuge with regard to my specific legal issues. There's nowhere in the world I could go and be safe from the wrath of one of the world's largest and most recognizable companies. In any modern country, they'll easily outlawyer me, and the laws on these matters are not completely unambiguous; it'd take me millions of dollars to mount a defense, and even then, there's a substantial likelihood that they would prevail.
In any developing country, the officials will be far too easy to buy off, and most likely all this company would have to do is ask, because the officials would much rather have their goodwill than mine. Look at the Pirate Bay guys; even though what they were doing was completely legal under Swedish law, the US State Dept pushed for their prosecution at the behest of a cartel of large companies, Sweden held a kangaroo court and convicted them, they fled to Cambodia/Laos/Thailand (basically the only countries with computer access that don't extradite on command from Western nations) and still eventually got caught at border crossings and sent back home to serve their time. Moral of the story appears to be that if BigCo wants your life screwed up badly enough, they will relentlessly pursue until it's done, and petty things like the laws of the nation-state are not relevant. Ultimately, money talks, no matter where you live.
I also don't really want to become an effective exile from my own home country, which is what would happen even if there was a country that would shelter a little person like myself. Criminal charges are possible under the CFAA and there would be an arrest warrant issued if a criminal case was brought, probably meaning I'd get arrested at the first American border stop. There would certainly be a standing civil judgment against any assets I own within American boundaries, which means I would never be able to have a bank account or own a home without resorting to identity theft. Not good stuff, and my little business is absolutely not worth all of that.
Even though I understand that there is nowhere on Earth that would allow my business to resume operations, after the research I've done, I still believe it'd be good for my family to spend a few years in Hong Kong for the reasons enumerated above. I continue to be interested in learning as much as I can from people who have experience there, especially experience with the entrepreneurial scene and/or raising a large family as an expat.
HK is a modern, high-tech city with fast internet and easy access to everything, including a lot of the brands that we're used to in America (I understand the HK versions may be substantially different). It's reported to be very safe and very clean. English is an official language (though I read that only about 5% of locals have more than the most basic proficiency in it), which would make it easier to operate than other areas of Asia as signage in English is available, official business can be conducted in English, etc. It's a great base for further exploration of the region. There is a large and apparently vibrant community of American and English expats. There's a culture of hard work and there are very low taxes. The weather is not necessarily ideal, but reasonable. I also believe that there would be developmental benefits for my children, including but not limited to the opportunity to fully immerse in Cantonese
I have no input on your legal woes, but your points above are pretty accurate. It's a very easy, safe (excluding the air pollution) and convenient place to live. The only point I'd disagree with is in raising a family there, but I imagine that's a personal preference. I'd also suggest that Mandarin would be immensely more useful for your children than Cantonese.
I don't want to turn this into a discussion, so i wont reply here again, but I'd direct you to the following popular forum for expat families here, which should contain a lot of relevant information and where you can ask questions of other HK expats:
https://geoexpat.com/
I live in HK, and have for 4 years. I lived in Shenzhen for 4 years prior to that, and Hong Kong is much better. It is nearly impossible to immigrate here without employer sponsorship, however you can look at their new startup immigration scheme, which allows startup founders a special visa provided you have a business plan, and plans to hire local people. Programming jobs abound, look up some headhunting/placement companies, and they will bend over backwards to place you. I work for myself, but my wife is HKese so that's how I manage. I love HK, it's a modern vibrant city, however it's offing expensive. Income tax is very low, but rent is hilariously overpriced, so this makes everything more expensive here. That said, if you want to live more locally, you can get by relatively inexpensively for things like food. Public transport is cheap and phenomenal so there's no need for a car. That said, unless you're in fintech or have a very good reason or big desire to be here, there are probably better places to go.