This actually rings true to my experience. I've been responsible for several outsourced problems, and one common factor among them is trying to get Indian programmers and PMs to just be straight with me. I've tried being direct by telling them that it's okay to tell me if something is wrong or to give me a realistic picture of progress, and I get "Yes sir, I will certainly be very honest with you, sir," but nothing changes. It's a difficult barrier. I haven't figured it out yet.
"I've been responsible for several outsourced problems, and one common factor among them is trying to get Indian programmers and PMs to just be straight with me.It's a difficult barrier. I haven't figured it out yet."
I might be able to help (I'll probably get downmodded into oblivion when some of my fellow Indians wake up but ... ).
The thing is, even in India the best (or even half way decent) programmers don't work for Infosys/Wipro/TCS and other outsourcing companies, who are probably the folks you are dealing with. The second tier outsourcing companies are worse. The good people go work for Google, or Yahoo or Microsoft, (and increasingly these days on their own startups) same as in the USA. The numbers of the latter are on the increase.
The number of really good programmers is as low here as anywhere else. I know maybe half a dozen after fifteen years of working in Bangalore that I would trust my project to.
Yet another (and the most important) factor is that all these outsourcing companies are heavily bureaucratic to a degree a Westerner can't imagine.
Most of it happens because the economics dictate overstaffing. If your revenue model is N people * m $/ hr, it makes sense to increase N as much as possible on every project. Anyone who survives for long in one of these places is by definition someone who practices CYA as an artform. Anyone outspoken and/or willing to admit mistakes will be ejected from the system very fast.
So yes, when you outsource crappy work to India (and most of the work outsourced here is mountains of legacy crap code no one in the West wants to work on anymore, often outsourced without meeting or talking to any of the engineers staffing the project, often on the basis of what some slick salesman put on his PowerPoint deck, yes then you get bad people.
And that is the truth. Your experience is valid and is the norm. Working on outsourced enterprise projects, without hope of ever working on a decent codebase, is soul killing and degrading. You can't expect decent developers or managers on such projects.
When someone replies "Yes sir, I will certainly be very honest with you, sir," that is a good sign you've got one of the bureaucratic ass kissers. "Sir" is always a danger sign. When you hear something like "WTF made you say that Peter? What are you really worried about?" you have a chance.
Yes there are sharp developers and managers here, but it is hardly likely they'll be working in bottom feeding enterprise outsourcing companies. (The director level people at Infosys etc are often very sharp people, which is how they conned you into outsourcing your project to them but that is another story for another day ;-) )
Please don't outsource to India (or anywhere else) before speaking to and attaining a comfort level with engineers and other team members who will be working on your codebase. By the time you encounter these "yes sir, I'll be honest sir" types, you are already lost.
This is absolutely true. (Fellow Indian here. Why did you think you would be downvoted? :) )
Let me expand one reason. Bureaucracy. The engineers or even managers you talk to may not have the authority/incentive to be honest with you. The directive from above will be to sugar coat anything they utter.
I sympathize - as a Chinese who is often critical of other Chinese, I've been called a traitor more times than I can remember. I've also been told that I was "no longer" Chinese, because I refused to side with "my people".
How do people from religious backgrounds where “karma” refers to something serious feel about the word being appropriated to mean a number on a web page?
I am an Indian, not sure about the relegious part.
Karma at least in India/Hindu culture is tossed around more freely than in the west. Mostly associated to negative incidents.
"I had a flat tire, its my karma", "Someone got kicked out of a job, he is reaping his karma".
You rarely would say "He has accumulated lot of good karma by doing good, I better see what he has to say".
On HN, its a different story.
Referring to those with whom one should be having a discussion as opposition is one of the foremost reasons that we need karma to effect visibility in the first place.
"Freedom of speech" is not a guarantee that you can post some a comment on some web forum and have it be seen, its a guarantee that if you do, and it is, that your government won't punish you for it.
By that same reasoning, China has a guarantee that it won't punish you for badmouthing their government...as long as it's done in the privacy of your own home.
I realize that freedom of speech in the US doesn't apply to private establishments, but I would expect HN to hold a higher standard than say a conservative Christian forum.
And keep in mind that one of PG's goals is to reduce the herd mentality.
By that same reasoning, China has a guarantee that it won't punish you for badmouthing their government...as long as it's done in the privacy of your own home.
America's free speech is a guarantee of nonpunishment _regardless_of_forum_.
What I'm getting at here is that you are trying to be pedantic know-it-all, yet you fail to know the details of free speech which you claim to be so knowledgeable about.
Just because I named 2 dubious uses of free speech, "slander" and "assasination", doesn't mean that the laws can't be twisted to clamp down on more legitimate issues: such as revealing corruption in the government which can be construed as libel in the US.
Overall, I am disappointed in the attitude of HN readers like you who take freedom of speech lightly.
To the point. I have met a few mind-blowing people who used to work at Infosys/Wipro/TCS a decade ago. Things have completely changed. Outsourcing/service based companies do not get any respect of Tier-I/II college CS people these days.
Frankly, outsourcing is going to stay. What is going to change is the way things are done. These companies have already figured out ways to get things done from not-so-good people by making use of the right tools and process. This will mostly likely be expanded further where development of the most common things would be mechanical without any kind of creativity involved. And yeah, people on the other side would move on to building tools that enable it :)
My (limited) experience with Indian outsourced teams is similar. One thing that I've found helpful is to have at least one face-to-face meeting with the outsourced team as it tends to better "humanize" both sides of the interaction.
If this were true, then cancelling the outsourced projects won't help either. That's because even if the american companies build the products in house, they will only be able to get the average programmers to do for them since the really good ones are working for google yahoo microsoft or their own startup.
My point is that I don't think outsourced projects fail because "those who build them are not our best engineers". There has to be other reasons.
I think you ahve a point there. I am from Argentina, and from what I read about other countries, talent distribution is geographically fair, and globalization makes people act similarly in different countries. What is different, though, is that some pepole go to Latin America, Eastern Europe and India looking for lower costs, and end up buying cheap labor (low hourly rates), which might not be the same. Offshoring work does not mean that you have to look for low hourly rates disregarding productivity, ability to communicate, infrastructure and people care - you shouldn't do that in your home country, why do it overseas?
The problem I've had with outsourcing is the treating of programmers like bodies. It seems like just when I've developed a good rapport with our programmers they are gone. Months of development knowledge, API knowledge, etc are right out the door.
My job requires me to train my replacement on our APIs if I leave. Over there, I guess it's not the same. When a programmer leaves I'm not given any notice. Just a new contact, who I then have to give the documentation, explain the work, and guide with the work. And this has happened to me 3 times in the last year.
Other than that, the guys are fantastic and good at their job.
Very few companies grasp the idea of intellectual capital. There is an amazing amount of value in a developer that knows a codebase backwards and forwards. Hard to monetize that though.
That's one reason I prefer outsourcing to eastern europe. There are fewer cultural differences - importantly, there's no cultural taboo about telling you you're wrong or that they don't understand.
I have real experience with this and my experience with Eastern Europe/Russia is not very good - with India it is abysmal.
Yes the cultural differences are less but in most cases the masking of the problem is still practised, albeit a little more efficiently , which means you find out the problems a little later, that's all.
As someone else pointed out - Good developers are few and far between , irrespective of country and/or culture.
The problem with not telling difficult truths is a cultural one, it's about losing one's face. I dealt with maroccan programmers for a while, and after 2 years got one programmer to be truthful with me. But boy took it time!
Comments
This actually rings true to my experience. I've been responsible for several outsourced problems, and one common factor among them is trying to get Indian programmers and PMs to just be straight with me. I've tried being direct by telling them that it's okay to tell me if something is wrong or to give me a realistic picture of progress, and I get "Yes sir, I will certainly be very honest with you, sir," but nothing changes. It's a difficult barrier. I haven't figured it out yet.
"I've been responsible for several outsourced problems, and one common factor among them is trying to get Indian programmers and PMs to just be straight with me.It's a difficult barrier. I haven't figured it out yet."
I might be able to help (I'll probably get downmodded into oblivion when some of my fellow Indians wake up but ... ).
The thing is, even in India the best (or even half way decent) programmers don't work for Infosys/Wipro/TCS and other outsourcing companies, who are probably the folks you are dealing with. The second tier outsourcing companies are worse. The good people go work for Google, or Yahoo or Microsoft, (and increasingly these days on their own startups) same as in the USA. The numbers of the latter are on the increase.
The number of really good programmers is as low here as anywhere else. I know maybe half a dozen after fifteen years of working in Bangalore that I would trust my project to.
Yet another (and the most important) factor is that all these outsourcing companies are heavily bureaucratic to a degree a Westerner can't imagine.
Most of it happens because the economics dictate overstaffing. If your revenue model is N people * m $/ hr, it makes sense to increase N as much as possible on every project. Anyone who survives for long in one of these places is by definition someone who practices CYA as an artform. Anyone outspoken and/or willing to admit mistakes will be ejected from the system very fast.
So yes, when you outsource crappy work to India (and most of the work outsourced here is mountains of legacy crap code no one in the West wants to work on anymore, often outsourced without meeting or talking to any of the engineers staffing the project, often on the basis of what some slick salesman put on his PowerPoint deck, yes then you get bad people.
And that is the truth. Your experience is valid and is the norm. Working on outsourced enterprise projects, without hope of ever working on a decent codebase, is soul killing and degrading. You can't expect decent developers or managers on such projects.
When someone replies "Yes sir, I will certainly be very honest with you, sir," that is a good sign you've got one of the bureaucratic ass kissers. "Sir" is always a danger sign. When you hear something like "WTF made you say that Peter? What are you really worried about?" you have a chance.
Yes there are sharp developers and managers here, but it is hardly likely they'll be working in bottom feeding enterprise outsourcing companies. (The director level people at Infosys etc are often very sharp people, which is how they conned you into outsourcing your project to them but that is another story for another day ;-) )
Please don't outsource to India (or anywhere else) before speaking to and attaining a comfort level with engineers and other team members who will be working on your codebase. By the time you encounter these "yes sir, I'll be honest sir" types, you are already lost.
My 2 cents. fwiw.
This is absolutely true. (Fellow Indian here. Why did you think you would be downvoted? :) )
Let me expand one reason. Bureaucracy. The engineers or even managers you talk to may not have the authority/incentive to be honest with you. The directive from above will be to sugar coat anything they utter.
" Why did you think you would be downvoted? :) "
This has happened to me before :-). I was called a "traitor" (to whom?) and "elitist" for saying something similar to this in another forum.
I don't mind. Karma (even on HN) is just a number on a webpage :-P
I sympathize - as a Chinese who is often critical of other Chinese, I've been called a traitor more times than I can remember. I've also been told that I was "no longer" Chinese, because I refused to side with "my people".
How do people from religious backgrounds where “karma” refers to something serious feel about the word being appropriated to mean a number on a web page?
I am an Indian, not sure about the relegious part. Karma at least in India/Hindu culture is tossed around more freely than in the west. Mostly associated to negative incidents. "I had a flat tire, its my karma", "Someone got kicked out of a job, he is reaping his karma".
You rarely would say "He has accumulated lot of good karma by doing good, I better see what he has to say". On HN, its a different story.
I imagine they think we'll get what we deserve for doing so.
I don't mind. Karma (even on HN) is just a number on a webpage :-P
Unfortunately, it is not just a number on HN.
A recent article here revealed a hidden algorithm that makes your votes useless if you drop under the global average karma/comment.
Thus it is more likely that populist opinions have comments shown higher while yours is likely rendered less visible by being grayed out.
So it's more than just a number on a web site... it's the ability to influence other numbers on that web site!
That would only be true if karma doesn't effect the visibility of your comment compared to the opposition.
It's an issue of freedom of speech, and unfortunately, isn't just another "number".
Referring to those with whom one should be having a discussion as opposition is one of the foremost reasons that we need karma to effect visibility in the first place.
"Freedom of speech" is not a guarantee that you can post some a comment on some web forum and have it be seen, its a guarantee that if you do, and it is, that your government won't punish you for it.
By that same reasoning, China has a guarantee that it won't punish you for badmouthing their government...as long as it's done in the privacy of your own home.
I realize that freedom of speech in the US doesn't apply to private establishments, but I would expect HN to hold a higher standard than say a conservative Christian forum.
And keep in mind that one of PG's goals is to reduce the herd mentality.
By that same reasoning, China has a guarantee that it won't punish you for badmouthing their government...as long as it's done in the privacy of your own home. America's free speech is a guarantee of nonpunishment _regardless_of_forum_.
That is incorrect. You are not allowed to cry fire in a theater nor are you allowed to say you will assassinate a public figure.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
What I'm getting at here is that you are trying to be pedantic know-it-all, yet you fail to know the details of free speech which you claim to be so knowledgeable about.
Just because I named 2 dubious uses of free speech, "slander" and "assasination", doesn't mean that the laws can't be twisted to clamp down on more legitimate issues: such as revealing corruption in the government which can be construed as libel in the US.
Overall, I am disappointed in the attitude of HN readers like you who take freedom of speech lightly.
I have a friend who is interested in link site karma systems who would probably love to read that - you don't have a link, do you?
To the point. I have met a few mind-blowing people who used to work at Infosys/Wipro/TCS a decade ago. Things have completely changed. Outsourcing/service based companies do not get any respect of Tier-I/II college CS people these days. Frankly, outsourcing is going to stay. What is going to change is the way things are done. These companies have already figured out ways to get things done from not-so-good people by making use of the right tools and process. This will mostly likely be expanded further where development of the most common things would be mechanical without any kind of creativity involved. And yeah, people on the other side would move on to building tools that enable it :)
One a related note, TED Talks: Devdutt Pattanaik: East vs. West -- the myths that mystify http://www.ted.com/talks/devdutt_pattanaik.html
My (limited) experience with Indian outsourced teams is similar. One thing that I've found helpful is to have at least one face-to-face meeting with the outsourced team as it tends to better "humanize" both sides of the interaction.
If this were true, then cancelling the outsourced projects won't help either. That's because even if the american companies build the products in house, they will only be able to get the average programmers to do for them since the really good ones are working for google yahoo microsoft or their own startup.
My point is that I don't think outsourced projects fail because "those who build them are not our best engineers". There has to be other reasons.
I think you ahve a point there. I am from Argentina, and from what I read about other countries, talent distribution is geographically fair, and globalization makes people act similarly in different countries. What is different, though, is that some pepole go to Latin America, Eastern Europe and India looking for lower costs, and end up buying cheap labor (low hourly rates), which might not be the same. Offshoring work does not mean that you have to look for low hourly rates disregarding productivity, ability to communicate, infrastructure and people care - you shouldn't do that in your home country, why do it overseas?
The problem I've had with outsourcing is the treating of programmers like bodies. It seems like just when I've developed a good rapport with our programmers they are gone. Months of development knowledge, API knowledge, etc are right out the door.
My job requires me to train my replacement on our APIs if I leave. Over there, I guess it's not the same. When a programmer leaves I'm not given any notice. Just a new contact, who I then have to give the documentation, explain the work, and guide with the work. And this has happened to me 3 times in the last year.
Other than that, the guys are fantastic and good at their job.
Very few companies grasp the idea of intellectual capital. There is an amazing amount of value in a developer that knows a codebase backwards and forwards. Hard to monetize that though.
That's one reason I prefer outsourcing to eastern europe. There are fewer cultural differences - importantly, there's no cultural taboo about telling you you're wrong or that they don't understand.
I have real experience with this and my experience with Eastern Europe/Russia is not very good - with India it is abysmal.
Yes the cultural differences are less but in most cases the masking of the problem is still practised, albeit a little more efficiently , which means you find out the problems a little later, that's all.
As someone else pointed out - Good developers are few and far between , irrespective of country and/or culture.
The problem with not telling difficult truths is a cultural one, it's about losing one's face. I dealt with maroccan programmers for a while, and after 2 years got one programmer to be truthful with me. But boy took it time!
It might be better to give them an option to put forward good news about X, then gently coax the bad news out if you don't hear back.
Basically, say "If everything is going great, give me an email when you sign off."
They might be more comfortable that way.
Perhaps you should tell them to mail you anonymously