They did one thing really well. They actually provide a running system. You linked to Nizza and EROS papers, not software. Genode provides a "framework" - and basically runs complete systems in separate windows.
QubesOS provides a familiar environment where applications can be labeled with different security contexts and run completely isolated from each other. Basically they win on execution right now. I'm sure there are loads of interesting approaches and papers describing how to make things better. But QubesOS is a product and it works. It also provides a user documentation, while genode docs give you c function signatures.
Oh yeah, they did build a running system. It was in similar status to the others (eg Dresden's TUDOS) when I made my recommendations. All needed work with QubesOS getting plenty from its dedicated team. Put enough work into something and it will certainly run: see Windows 3.1 on MS-DOS. ;) QubesOS is way better naturally but shows the point that "it runs" doesn't invalidate any design or security claim made about it. Nor is it an excuse for using a bad approach or failing to adapt. Reminds me of programmers with defective code that argue, "But mine ran faster!"
That said, it's usable enough that even I recommend it as an option when strong attackers aren't the opponents. If the attackers are, then it's unlikely to save you and work should be put into the inherently stronger options to get them in better shape. Plus, there's some commercial separation kernels that already run on desktops/laptops etc. one can use. They all use security-focused kernels, user-mode drivers, user-mode networking stacks w/ hardening, trusted boot, I/O MMU, and so on. Not cheap, though, plus a risk of subversion or someone cutting corners. Decisions, decisions. ;)
Truth be told, the whole market (proprietary + FOSS) sucks one way or another. Enemies are probably going to get in if it's a desktop due need to be compatible with much risky garbage. Only the console approaches can be made strong enough with FOSS components right now. Tough trade-offs in ease-of-use, too.
My current recommendation for defending against strong attackers is my old approach: several cheap, hardened machines for physical separation with KVM switch; a guard for sharing between them; sharing done over non-DMA, simple interfaces with simple, easy-to-parse protocols. Additionally, no wireless functionality (even disabled) in them at all. Worked before and still works for less than $1,000 but it ain't pretty or easy to setup.
"Genode provides a "framework" - and basically runs complete systems in separate windows."
Actually, it's a [barely-]usable system differentiated by a resource-management scheme, pluggable microkernels, minimal-TCB native apps, and/or running "complete systems in separate windows." Splitting between microkernel apps and VM's is a proven method that resisted NSA hackers in prior evaluations (eg XTS-400, INTEGRITY-178B). Part that really needs review for risks is their resource-management scheme. However, if proven, it will be advantageous in benefits it offers and especially if microkernel/microhypervisor is enhanced with INTEGRITY RTOS-style resource controls. Malicious apps mostly wouldn't be able to do shit unless there were hardware flaws or problems in the few, trusted components.
Meanwhile, QubesOS runs. So do my Linux LiveCD's and KVM boxes. Malware doesn't hit any of them because the best aren't trying: most targets use Windows or predictable Linux builds. We'll keep using such obfuscation until the [FOSS] strong stuff is ready.
> My current recommendation for defending against strong attackers is my old approach: several cheap, hardened machines for physical separation with KVM switch; a guard for sharing between them; sharing done over non-DMA, simple interfaces with simple, easy-to-parse protocols.
Could you share more about the physical transport for sharing, the data guard (is that a separate box with a Live CD) and wire protocols?
How do you protect against physical threats to unattended devices/data, e.g. do you have any form of trusted boot to verify the integrity of the BIOS, bootloader and OS?
There is no protection for unattended devices lol. That's a huge cat and mouse game. It's why I used to use little embedded boxes like ARTIGO's which were easy to stash along with tamper-evidence tricks. If there was tampering, can't be trusted any more. The few times turned out to be a roommate bumbling around for some ridiculous reason.
There are many physical transports to use. My original hack was IDE in a non-DMA mode to get past serial's speed limits. Then I/O offloading onto dedicated, cheap computers to pre-process the data and force it into correct spot. Next step was synthesis of the same onto cheap, I/O-focused FPGA's or microcontrollers before I had to put a pause on those developments.
The guard [1] is the strongest part. It used simple hardware(s), a security-focused microkernel, carefully written drivers, optional middleware for internal flow control, and separate partitions for each logical function. Anything incoming is fully scrutinized before moving on. Certain protections, such as encryption, might be applied automatically. The modular, layered, often FSM-using implementation of each thing allows the highest amounts of analysis and verification w/ many errors provably absent. You can also gradually add advanced security technology as it comes online such as SecureCore, Cambrige's CHERI processor, DIFT, Softbound + CETS, etc.
So, the concept is physical separation into different domains. The computers use what they need to use. The Internet-facing ones typically did use LiveCD's and BIOS's I could protect to a degree (eg oldest boxes had jumpers). If it wasn't LiveCD, it was regularly restored from clean backups. Virtualization, hardening, and mandatory controls used as appropriate but I assume it will be toast. Simpler formats like text, HTML 3.2, BMP, and so on for easy analysis by guard. If complex stuff is allowed, it goes over a data diode so any malware isn't leaking things back.
For a similar approach at network/host level, see Boeing's OASIS Architecture [3] that builds on their high-assurance Embedded Firewall (PCI card), SNS Server (highest rating/field-use ever), and a bunch of custom components/strategies. Post-police-state, I'm basically just swapping out Linux distro's as I can't afford to build my old setups any more. My current R&D is on tools such as crash-safe.org, CHERI (w/ CHERIBSD), and the cryptographic methods that all protect system confidentiality and integrity from hardware up. Been working on verified ASIC development flow to implement them with that being done up to RTL level. Current explorations are High-level Synthesis, Analog Synthesis, and my medium-high-assurance RAD methods for software. Post most of my results on Schneier.com, etc instead of my own blog for impact with some companies copying it without credit that we've seen. I can email you those if I haven't.
Comments
They did one thing really well. They actually provide a running system. You linked to Nizza and EROS papers, not software. Genode provides a "framework" - and basically runs complete systems in separate windows.
QubesOS provides a familiar environment where applications can be labeled with different security contexts and run completely isolated from each other. Basically they win on execution right now. I'm sure there are loads of interesting approaches and papers describing how to make things better. But QubesOS is a product and it works. It also provides a user documentation, while genode docs give you c function signatures.
Oh yeah, they did build a running system. It was in similar status to the others (eg Dresden's TUDOS) when I made my recommendations. All needed work with QubesOS getting plenty from its dedicated team. Put enough work into something and it will certainly run: see Windows 3.1 on MS-DOS. ;) QubesOS is way better naturally but shows the point that "it runs" doesn't invalidate any design or security claim made about it. Nor is it an excuse for using a bad approach or failing to adapt. Reminds me of programmers with defective code that argue, "But mine ran faster!"
That said, it's usable enough that even I recommend it as an option when strong attackers aren't the opponents. If the attackers are, then it's unlikely to save you and work should be put into the inherently stronger options to get them in better shape. Plus, there's some commercial separation kernels that already run on desktops/laptops etc. one can use. They all use security-focused kernels, user-mode drivers, user-mode networking stacks w/ hardening, trusted boot, I/O MMU, and so on. Not cheap, though, plus a risk of subversion or someone cutting corners. Decisions, decisions. ;)
Truth be told, the whole market (proprietary + FOSS) sucks one way or another. Enemies are probably going to get in if it's a desktop due need to be compatible with much risky garbage. Only the console approaches can be made strong enough with FOSS components right now. Tough trade-offs in ease-of-use, too.
My current recommendation for defending against strong attackers is my old approach: several cheap, hardened machines for physical separation with KVM switch; a guard for sharing between them; sharing done over non-DMA, simple interfaces with simple, easy-to-parse protocols. Additionally, no wireless functionality (even disabled) in them at all. Worked before and still works for less than $1,000 but it ain't pretty or easy to setup.
"Genode provides a "framework" - and basically runs complete systems in separate windows."
Actually, it's a [barely-]usable system differentiated by a resource-management scheme, pluggable microkernels, minimal-TCB native apps, and/or running "complete systems in separate windows." Splitting between microkernel apps and VM's is a proven method that resisted NSA hackers in prior evaluations (eg XTS-400, INTEGRITY-178B). Part that really needs review for risks is their resource-management scheme. However, if proven, it will be advantageous in benefits it offers and especially if microkernel/microhypervisor is enhanced with INTEGRITY RTOS-style resource controls. Malicious apps mostly wouldn't be able to do shit unless there were hardware flaws or problems in the few, trusted components.
Meanwhile, QubesOS runs. So do my Linux LiveCD's and KVM boxes. Malware doesn't hit any of them because the best aren't trying: most targets use Windows or predictable Linux builds. We'll keep using such obfuscation until the [FOSS] strong stuff is ready.
> My current recommendation for defending against strong attackers is my old approach: several cheap, hardened machines for physical separation with KVM switch; a guard for sharing between them; sharing done over non-DMA, simple interfaces with simple, easy-to-parse protocols.
Could you share more about the physical transport for sharing, the data guard (is that a separate box with a Live CD) and wire protocols?
How do you protect against physical threats to unattended devices/data, e.g. do you have any form of trusted boot to verify the integrity of the BIOS, bootloader and OS?
There is no protection for unattended devices lol. That's a huge cat and mouse game. It's why I used to use little embedded boxes like ARTIGO's which were easy to stash along with tamper-evidence tricks. If there was tampering, can't be trusted any more. The few times turned out to be a roommate bumbling around for some ridiculous reason.
There are many physical transports to use. My original hack was IDE in a non-DMA mode to get past serial's speed limits. Then I/O offloading onto dedicated, cheap computers to pre-process the data and force it into correct spot. Next step was synthesis of the same onto cheap, I/O-focused FPGA's or microcontrollers before I had to put a pause on those developments.
The guard [1] is the strongest part. It used simple hardware(s), a security-focused microkernel, carefully written drivers, optional middleware for internal flow control, and separate partitions for each logical function. Anything incoming is fully scrutinized before moving on. Certain protections, such as encryption, might be applied automatically. The modular, layered, often FSM-using implementation of each thing allows the highest amounts of analysis and verification w/ many errors provably absent. You can also gradually add advanced security technology as it comes online such as SecureCore, Cambrige's CHERI processor, DIFT, Softbound + CETS, etc.
So, the concept is physical separation into different domains. The computers use what they need to use. The Internet-facing ones typically did use LiveCD's and BIOS's I could protect to a degree (eg oldest boxes had jumpers). If it wasn't LiveCD, it was regularly restored from clean backups. Virtualization, hardening, and mandatory controls used as appropriate but I assume it will be toast. Simpler formats like text, HTML 3.2, BMP, and so on for easy analysis by guard. If complex stuff is allowed, it goes over a data diode so any malware isn't leaking things back.
For a similar approach at network/host level, see Boeing's OASIS Architecture [3] that builds on their high-assurance Embedded Firewall (PCI card), SNS Server (highest rating/field-use ever), and a bunch of custom components/strategies. Post-police-state, I'm basically just swapping out Linux distro's as I can't afford to build my old setups any more. My current R&D is on tools such as crash-safe.org, CHERI (w/ CHERIBSD), and the cryptographic methods that all protect system confidentiality and integrity from hardware up. Been working on verified ASIC development flow to implement them with that being done up to RTL level. Current explorations are High-level Synthesis, Analog Synthesis, and my medium-high-assurance RAD methods for software. Post most of my results on Schneier.com, etc instead of my own blog for impact with some companies copying it without credit that we've seen. I can email you those if I haven't.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_%28information_security%...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unidirectional_network
[3] http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA425566